Hi
I'm more in the rust camp, but I'm very interested in nim, since it seems to me that it approaches the same space (low level and systems programming) from a very different angle. After starting to play around with nim I'm not sure I am completely on board with the fast and loose approach in comparison to rusts safety first mantra, but it's another perspective and it's certainly a ton of fun. And I'm looking forward to all the extended meta programming capabilities.
But in comparison I noticed that in rust the "safety first" approach also extends to the community. A lot of otherwise implicit positions are codified, there is a very explicit Code of Conduct that is enforced in all community channels and so on.
Why was the decision made to not have a CoC or something similar in the nim community?
Because it's a waste of time. The recent troll attacks wouldn't have been prevented by a CoC.
It's not about trolls and it most certainly is not a waste of time. It's about ensuring that everyone feels comfortable in the community.
Why was the decision made to not have a CoC or something similar in the nim community?
There wasn't a decision made to not have a CoC, at least not by me. The problem is that we don't have the time to instil one. I guess another problem is that @Araq seems to be against it since he believes that "it is a waste of time".
It's about ensuring that everyone feels comfortable in the community.
Which doesn't work. If there is no CoC, and someone behaves like a dick and bothers some people, he gets kicked. If there is a CoC, the same guy can still behave like a dick and still gets kicked. But now, he not only was a dick, but also violated the CoC, so he was, with the same behavior, more of a dick than before. Which tends to bother people more. It's a psychological thing.
I have seen no CoC ever that told me something I wouldn't have thought of myself. CoCs are no rules that magically make anything better. They just increase the impact every single misbehavior has on the community. So yeah, I agree with Araq here that they are a waste of time.
@madmalik To me, the biggest reason that we don't have a CoC (besides the fact that Araq is against one) is that no-one has actually written one.
Unlike Rust, the Nim commnity doesn't have the backing of a huge, well-known company (and as grateful as I am for METATEXX GmbH's backing, the plain fact is that they aren't as big or well-known as Mozilla (yet)). As such, we don't have nearly the number of core-devs and supporting staff that Rust does, so compromises must be made. One of those compromises is leaving matters such as a CoC to the community and its contributors.
It's a sad fact, but publicity and man-power matter just as much as how 'good' a programming language is these days, at least when it comes to community outreach. Just look at how fast anything Rust- or Go-related rises to the front-page of Hacker News, vs anything Nim, Crystal, or Haskell related.
They just increase the impact every single misbehavior has on the community.
I've seen multiple communities (off and online) fall apart after one or a few toxic persons stayed part of them far too long, because no one really knew where to draw lines. The problem is not clearly wrong behavior, but the borderline acceptable. When a community grows (and I presume many people here see a chance, that the nim community will grow) there will be people pushing this boundaries further and further.
The tenor seems to be "waste of time". Frankly, I see it as waste of time to engage with a community that is unable to write a few words what I can expect from this community and what is acceptable and not acceptable behaviour. (and of course, stands by this words)
@Araq said that he can envision this to become a long discussion. And I would say yeah, this could be true. Thats because humans are difficult and all that obvious stuff that lands in a CoC isn't that obvious after all. But as a community grows this discussion doesn't become easier.
Frankly, I see it as waste of time to engage with a community that is unable to write a few words what I can expect from this community and what is acceptable and not acceptable behaviour.
I don't like this kind of demanding attitude.
Since the dawn of time, it was the task of each person to get to know the other persons they hang out with, figure out how they work, what is acceptable and what isn't. Now you seem to be telling here that when you join a new community, it is their job to tell you exactly what you can and cannot expect from social interactions with them. Why would it? You are assuming a meta code of conduct which defines that a community shall have a code of conduct. And you are trying to transfer your personal responsibility onto them.
because no one really knew where to draw lines
I do not see how, for example, Rust's CoC helps with drawing lines in borderline cases. The wording is completely general and unspecific. Let's just look at this line:
Likewise any spamming, trolling, flaming, baiting or other attention-stealing behaviour is not welcome.
It does not define when exactly some behavior qualifies as trolling, flaming etc. So the borderline discussion stays the same.
Finally:
I've seen multiple communities (off and online) fall apart after one or a few toxic persons stayed part of them far too long
Do you have any evidence that supports your claim that those communities would not have fallen apart if they had a CoC? Correlation does not imply causation.
<coc> One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself </coc>
done...
Frankly, I see it as waste of time to engage with a community that is unable to write a few words what I can expect from this community and what is acceptable and not acceptable behaviour.
Bye, Felicia.
As someone who's seen how CoCs poison and undermine any developer community they touch (had first-hand experience as member of the Ruby community) I beg you: please, please do NOT let gender-politics and intellectual fascism ruin this community by adopting a C0C.
Please stay focused on improving this great language instead. That's all that should matter.
@bpr That's a suggestion for program design. A code of conduct is a set of social rules for a community (such as a forum).
Again, I'm not against listing of rules. How about the ones listed here (one of the top results for 'simple forum rules').
In my experience, political CoC's almost always have the opposite effect, resulting in more toxic behaviour.
And expecting adults to behave in a civil way with a CoC, that otherwise wouldn't, is something I find amusing.
Anyway, if community really wants it, we can adopt something simple.
Some inspiration:
Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.
from HN
or
Be nice. Or else.
from DN
@Varriount I know what a CoC is. I was joking.
I 'm with the anti-CoC crowd. If enough people in the Nim community start behaving badly, I might change my mind, but besides spammers and trolls, most people here behave well. Are there specific examples of unhandled bad behavior in the Nim community that merit starting this whole thing?
Are there specific examples of unhandled bad behavior in the Nim community that merit starting this whole thing?
There never are, but the CoC proponents still try to force it upon others. It's all about control and conformity.
There is no evidence that any troll has ever been put off by the existence of CoCs. There is loads of evidence that CoCs have been used to intimidate and silence differing opinions.
Please don't fall into this trap. Keep the Nim community united and free!
Nah, just kidding. No to CoC!
if !nice:
eject()
I appreciate the clear positioning.
I don't think it's for me. The feeling seems to be mutual, so, no hard feelings and bye.