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8525 :: Setting up a Nim foundation

• sauerbread (orginal) [2021-10-21T11:43:57+02:00] view original

  Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to nim and I would like to suggest to setup a formal nim association which would lead to serveral benefits for the project. Since @Araq is located in Germany, how about setting up an gemeinnützig eingetragenen Verein (non-profit registered association). This would result in several benefits for the Project:

  1. Nim could organize events and workshops.
  2. Have a more formal legal entity.
  3. legal liability as an association and not on individuals.
  4. Promoting the Nim Language.
  5. Members of the community could sign up as a Mitglied (Member) and can participate on the matters of the association.
  6. The association could hold several assets of the project such as trademarks, logos, whatever.
  7. Nim would be eligible for types of public funding.
  8. Donations would be tax deductable.
  9. Corporate Sponsors could sign up for a Fördermitgliedschaft (Supporting Member, in lack of a better translation).
  10. A shiny business card.
  11. Fun in long meetings.

  To setup a association we would need:

  1. At least 7 People (Don't necessarily need to be German)
  2. Gründungs­versamm­lung (Founding meeting)
  3. Write a Satzung (Bylaws) at said meeting
  4. Find a nice name for it.
  5. Write a letter to the Tax office to check for Gemeinnützigkeit (Non-profit status).
  6. Register the association at the Vereinsregister (Association register)

  and voilà the Nim association is born. I am by no means a legal person, but from what I can tell this is the overall gist of it.

  Anyway I've had a lot of fun with nim lately and wanted to thank everyone involved. Cheers.

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• Araq (orginal) [2021-10-21T13:35:13+02:00] view original

  Sorry, this is now in German.

  Das klingt sehr interessant, ich hatte bisher nur eine "Stiftung" in Betracht gezogen und jeder mit ein bisschen Ahnung von der Materie riet mir davon ab. Kennst du die juristischen Feinheiten? Was ist der Unterschied zwischen einem Verein und einer Stiftung?

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• sauerbread (orginal) [2021-10-21T14:33:20+02:00] view original

  Ich bin mir auch über die juristischen Feinheiten nicht ganz im klaren (Ich bin auch nur ein laie in der Angelegenheit), allerdings habe ich nach ein bisschen rumsuchen ein paar Antworten gefunden.

  • Der Verein ist leichter zu gründen, es muss nur im Register eingetragen werden. Bei Stiftungen gibt es eine Aufsichtbehörde die den Antrag genehmigen muss.
  • Die Gebühren sind "übersichtlicher". 150€ ungefähr bei einem Verein, Variables Mindestkapital bei einer Stiftung die von den behörden so ungefähr bei 25.000€ angesetzt wird.
  • Vorstand wird bei einem Verein (sofern es in der Satzung steht) jährlich gewählt. Stiftungen bestimmen ihren Vorstand in der Satzung ohne Neuwahlen.
  • In einem Verein gibt es Mitglieder die mitmachen, mitbestimmen. Eine Stiftung sieht das nicht vor.

  Als Erfolgsmodelle z.B. gibt es:

  • K Desktop Environment e.V. (KDE)
  • SUMA-EV (Metager)
  • Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. (Wikipedia)

  Generell sieht es eher so aus, als ob die Stiftung eher auf Geld ausgeben als auf Partizipation ausgerichtet ist.

  Translation

  I am also not entirely clear about the legal subtleties (I am also only a layman in the matter), but after a bit of searching I found a few answers.

  • The association is easier to set up, it just needs to be entered in the register. Foundations have a supervisory authority that has to approve the application.
  • The fees are more "managable". 150 € for an association, variable minimum capital for a foundation that is set by the authorities at around 25,000 €.
  • The board of directors is elected annually at an association (if it is in the statutes). Foundations determine their board of directors in the statutes without new elections.
  • In an association there are members who take part, have a say. A foundation does not provide for that.

  As successful models there are, for example:

  • K Desktop Environment e.V. (KDE)
  • SUMA-EV (Metager)
  • Wikimedia Germany e. V. (Wikipedia)

  In general, it looks as if the foundation is more focused on spending money than on participation.

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• adrianv (orginal) [2021-10-21T14:43:59+02:00] view original

  was ich bisher gelesen hat ein Verein den Nachteil (oder Vorteil) das er demokratisch geführt werden muss - das macht eine geschäftliche Nutzung komplizierter. Eine Alternative ist eine gGmbH (gemeinnützige GmbH) oder wenn man kleiner Anfangen will eine gUG. Hier ist ein Link zu weiterführenden Informationen https://www.gruenderkueche.de/fachartikel/checkliste-gemeinnuetzige-gmbh-ggmbh-und-verein-im-vergleich/

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• reneha (orginal) [2021-10-21T21:22:26+02:00] view original

  A Stiftung (foundation) is basically some amount of money dedicated to some purpose whereas a Verein (association) is a group of people pursuing some purpose.

  A Verein is usually democratic but it doesn't have to - the by-laws can restrict the participation of members to a great extent but not completely (there must be still some way for the members to assemble and change the by-laws).

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• reneha (orginal) [2021-10-21T21:34:23+02:00] view original

  Note that Gemeinnützigkeit is not the same as non-profit. A Verein has to be non-profit to be registered but for being gemeinnützig it has to have some charitable purpose. I doubt that supporting the development of a programming language is a charitable purpose under German tax law.

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• sauerbread (orginal) [2021-10-21T22:21:22+02:00] view original

  Yes, I guess I have translated that wrong. But none the less I think a Nim association would qualify for being charitable. According to § 52 AO (DE/EN), there a multiple points nim would qualify for including 1. the advancement of science and research & 7. the advancement of upbringing, adult education and vocational training including assistance for students. This would include but not be limited to support of the Nim Programming Language and development of technical advancements and teaching of said technologies via events/documentation/workshops/etc.

  For Example KDE they state in their bylaws :

  The purpose of the association is the promotion and dissemination of free desktop software in the sense of free software with special consideration of the program package "K Desktop Environment (KDE)" in order to support the free exchange of knowledge and equal opportunities for access to software as well as popular education, science and research.

  The purpose of the articles of association is particularly realized by

  promoting education, exchange of views and collaboration between users, developers and researchers

  Research and discussion on the impact of free desktop software and the idea of ​​free software on society and science

  the further development and research of free desktop software

  the provision of free desktop software, supporting images, sounds, data and documentation as well as the promotion of their availability and the creation and dissemination of information material about it

  Contribution to the professional information of the public in the area of ​​activity of the association and participation in trade fairs and congresses in order to make the information accessible to a broader spectrum of users

  Organization of congresses and generally accessible lectures for further training of project participants and users

  the preservation of the free rights of the project participants to protect against the commercial interests of third parties

  So it's possible and I think it would be well deserved for nim, maybe in case of a founding we should consider visiting a legal professional to collect our thoughts and charitable purposes.

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• dom96 (orginal) [2021-10-21T23:00:58+02:00] view original

  Thank you for starting this discussion.

  A Nim foundation has been a long time coming and I hope we can get one established.

  What I'm curious about is what advantages does an association enable? I assume at the very least such organisations are exempt from taxation? Do they also benefit from tax-free (or maybe even tax-deductible) donations from for-profit corporations? If the answer is yes, I suppose it's important to also ask whether this includes donations from non-German (and non-EU) corporations.

  Also as an aside, are there any other EU countries that offer better non-profit organisational structures?

  As far as the UK is concerned, there seem to be two choices: charitable companies and charitable trusts[1][2]. Both sound very similar to the German associations and there don't appear to be any advantages over the German equivalent.

  1 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/annex-i-tax-exemptions-for-charities

  2 - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/charity-types-how-to-choose-a-structure

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• sauerbread (orginal) [2021-10-22T01:48:13+02:00] view original

  So in advance I am only a layman, but several benefits would be:

  • Some of the points mentioned above.
  • Would be a Juridical person. Therefore legal liability as an association not as an individual.
  • The Association would be eligible for certain types of public funding.
  • (free or low-cost) use of halls or other "public spaces" by public bodies.
  • Basically gemeinnützige Vereine (charitable associations) are (as far as I can tell) kinda like the 501(c)(3) Organization e.g. Python Software Foundation. They have all the jazz of bylaws and annual member meetups and board of directors too.
  • Street Creds. gemeinnützige Vereine are kinda popular, very democratic.

  Financial benefits would be:

  • If the association is Gemeinnützig (charitable), no registration fees for the Vereinsregister.
  • Donators / Corporate Donators can get a Spendenbescheinigung (Donation receipt) and tax-cutting up to 20% of their annual revenue as special expenses or alternatively, the limit of four per thousand of annual sales plus wages and salaries.
  • No Taxes on donations, (Corporate-) Membership fees
  • Exemption from corporate income tax and trade tax for matters of the association and purpose operations/entities.
  • Turnover exemption limit of 35,000 euros in commercial business operations plus 5,000 euros exemption amount each for corporation tax and trade tax
  • Reduced VAT rate 7% for purpose operations/entities
  • If the association pays a trainer a Übungsleiterpauschale (Exercise leader allowance) up to 3,000 euros/year are tax-free. (Actually this includes Trainers, instructors, educators, supervisors, lecturers). General volunteers can get a compensation for part-time voluntary activities up to 840 Euro/Year tax-free.
  • And possibly more ... 174 Pages is a long skim through.

  There is a difference between purpose operations and business operations. Purpose operations are only allowed if its necessary to fullfill the purpose of your bylaws (e.g. Conference/Workshop), business operations is anything else (e.g. sell sausages).

  Skim trough material

  1. There is a very fun pdf in german from NRW named Associations & Taxes. They outlined pretty much everything on sweet 174 pages.
  2. Benefits if you're Gemeinnützig.
  3. Also here is a german howto and general overview in german about a charitable association.

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  So with (non-German-) for-profit corporations, corporations seem fine you dont have to tax any of your donations and there is a possibility to get a tax cut on the donator side (Spendenbescheinigung). Seems like abroad corps are also fine, idk I skimmed it through and I found nothing against it (eitherway a law professional should rate it anyway).

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  UK being a shelter for our foundation would be interesting. My guess is that leaving the EU will do our goal no favors (Access to a broader range of EU funding, fewer restrictions, unpredicted things happen in UK, idk). That being said I'm open for any country, it just so happens that I'm german and researched a bit.

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• qqtop (orginal) [2021-10-22T23:05:10+02:00] view original

  The Firebird database project seemed to have done this abt. 10 years ago.

  Maybe some ideas can be gleaned from here:

  http://www.firebirdsql.org/en/firebird-foundation/

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• JPLRouge (orginal) [2021-10-23T15:49:40+02:00] view original

  Hello, for having assembled and been president of association (France) be careful if you have to pay people see if in the country where you make the declaration of your association for example in France the president can not be remunerated and the remunerations must be declared to the tax authorities. Regarding the discussions, this is the only point that I see not addressed. Now an association allows and has a lot of advantage.

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• royneary (orginal) [2021-10-26T23:04:49+02:00] view original

  I can share a tiny bit of experience about a free software project that organizes itself as an eingetragener Verein (GNUnet e.V.). The Verein is managed through a git repository (https://git.gnunet.org/gnunet-ev.git). Maybe the documents in there can serve as an inspiration.

  I used to be a Beisitzer in the Verein and during that time the administration overhead has been very low. You become a member by asking for commit privileges to the git repo and adding your name to members.txt (the Satzung explicitly allows that). There are no membership fees. The only necessary work we have to do (afaik) is to have an annual assemby (online or offline) were we

  • vote for a head (Präsident, stellvertretender Präsident, Kassenwart, Beisitzer)
  • report on the finances
  • write minutes

  and write a simple balance sheet (see bilanz*.tex) in case the tax office asks. GNUnet e.V. received donations and didn't have to pay taxes on them (even though it is not gemeinnützig) but I think there's an upper limit of tax-free income that we didn't reach.

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• judfilm (orginal) [2021-10-27T07:53:58+02:00] view original

  Hello,

  Thank-you so much to all the devs for making Nim so great. A foundation sounds like a great idea for Nim and I would like to be involved.

  LibreOffice has the "The Document Foundation" - https://www.documentfoundation.org/ charitable Foundation under German law (gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts).

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